Was it the only new bus sign on nuns Island? Or they did a couple more?
It’s the only one I saw.
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Honestly I really like that revised map! Though one thing I feel is “left out” is how crippling a re-do like that would be for people who rely on transit but not necessarily to go downtown (or to one of the places the REM serves). For example, going from the pierrefonds/st charles corner to cote vertu metro would now require three buses (or bus-rem-bus) instead of just one. This isn’t a problem for people going downtown but if your destination is someplace like decarie this can quickly become a huge chore.
There’s also a few things that feel… suuuper weird. Here’s a few that I noticed:
- 201 being a core route on st charles despite there not being any rem stations on st charles seems counter-productive
- Pierrefonds boulevard between St Jean and des Sources being deserted in favour of putting buses on Gouin… as a guy who happens to live on that stretch of road, that’s kinda a bad idea for a few reasons. Gouin is a narrower residential road with stricter speed limits (30-40kph instead of the 50 on Pierrefonds) and about 6 billion stop signs. Pierrefonds blvd has like 5 traffic lights and thats it, and is built for higher speeds (just stroad things you know how it is). The corridor between St Jean and des Sources is fairly busy, and having people’s buses go on the small road where you cannot go fast at all and come to a full stop every 10 seconds would be absolutely aggravating instead of having it on the main boulevard where you can probably travel the whole length at 50-60kph stopping only once or twice for traffic lights
- 68 being cut into two would also be devastating as many rely on bus as being truly “that bus that runs the whole length of the borough”. Many students use it to get to/from school and having to get off and back on at roxboro, which would be a (to their perspective) arbitrary point in the line would be kinda awkward
- Dorval seems to be reallllly getting the short end of the stick here. Unfortunately given CDPQ’s lack of enthusiasm I have little faith we’ll see a REM extension to Dorval in the near future, so I think it’s quite important to preserve the 211 for them bar something super weird like the VH line finally getting usable off-peak service (read: not one train every 3 hours, more than 3-4 trains/day on weekends, and last train at midnight instead of 9pm)
- The 216-217 split looks… weird to me. 217 east of sources really doesn’t seem to fulfill any useful niches that the 72 can’t cover better. Also, intuitively, not having the 216 go down the length of the highway anymore feels kinda odd. Especially since now the businesses east of sources, on the south side of the highway are now inaccessible.
Here’s some suggestions I think are worth looking into:
- The 201 in this map could work as a more “local service” bus. Instead of being the main Pierrefonds link between St charles and st jean (rene emard) it might be better kept running on Gouin boulevard the whole way through and made a non-core bus route (service every 20-30 mins or so idk)
- The 68 shouldnt end at roxboro and should maintain its current route of spanning the whole length of Pierrefonds blvd. It should also be a core line; since for everyone living on/near the boulevard itll be the faster way to the REM (faster than the current 470; I really feel like we should make the old 68 the “new 470”). That way the 201 no longer needs to be a core route.
- If we really want to give st charles a core bus line it needs to be a separate line that goes to one of the closest REM stops, so either Kirkland or Fairview REM. Id rather it go to Fairview to improve connections for people who need to make in-neighbourhood trips.
- The 209 should be a core bus. des Sources has bus lanes but they sit empty cuz the bus that would use them comes every half an hour, so everyone drives instead. A frequent 209 would probably be very beneficial to get people away from driving and into the bus, especially since a not insignificant people (especially in eastern DDO) live close to the boulevard (i mean, cuz if not then why else would it have bus lanes?)
- Building off of that suggestion, the 209’s eastern terminus doesn’t have to be dorval; it can go down a20 and then continue the route to downtown. This would replace the 211/405/411/425/485 service that Dorval residents rely on, especially if it comes somewhat frequently. That way instead of having 5 buses that do the same dang route (211 405 411 425 485 + the 747 whose buses we can now use) we can just funnel everyone in dorval towards either the train (when its running) or the 209 (when it’s not).
- Looking at where the old 72 is… it should stay, it can probably handle hymus on it’s own. With the arrival of the rem 72 can be downgraded from a core bus to a regular local bus (one every 20-30 mins). Also recalling the 217 from earlier, between st Charles and des Sources, I think it’s better used on hymus to sources and the 216 can stay as “the highway route”. That way the 211 can be rerouted. To me the 211 after going up st charles should just use brunswick (or the 40) to go to Fairview. Im mostly trying to think of the bord-du-lac–lakeshore residents who rely on a currently fast 211; this new 211 will be much slower and we should probably not cripple the route duration this much.
- I see little point having the 215 go south to alfred nobel… To me personally I think it’s more useful going to Sunnybrooke REM instead
Another thing I feel needs to be addressed is the current roster of express bus routes. I think we’re all familiar with 470 but theres also routes like 401, 405, 409, 411, 425, 468. To me, 405 411 425 and 485 can straight up not exist anymore, the 201 208 and 218 can pick up the 401’s slack and the 468 can simply not exist (the need for a bus straight to the metro is significantly lessened by having buses to the REM; we can maybe just have some 68 departures go to the metro to compensate if needed). This leaves 409 which im honestly not sure how to deal with.
@fbfree if you’re cool with it I modded ur map directly to better illustrate my thoughts xD one thing in this edit I didn’t mention above is in this case since 201 is taking care of Gouin, 208 can go back to Pierrefonds instead.
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really cool maps, but maybe keep the 211 to Dorval or a bus abbott Dorval. The amount of people who use to the Lionel Groulx/abbott corridor is very high, and the buses from Lionel Groulx fill up with students by the time they get to gare Pointe Claire.
Je pense que l’approche habituelle de la STM est de mettre un panneau avec la date d’entrée en service de la nouvelle ligne, puis le remplacer avec un panneau permanent après quelques mois. C’est que qu’ils avaient fait quand ils avaient scindé la 435 sur les nouvelles lignes 465 et 480.
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I think part of the hope is that with the REM, people who used to go from lionel groulx to bord-du-lac–lakeshore can take the REM to Fairview or des Sources then some bus from there to lakeshore; meanwhile those who used to use it to go to dorval can find another way; either by giving them a new express bus or by improving the VH line service.
Realistically though even though in these maps we’re sorta looking at the possibility of moving the 211’s terminus, I think a more likely situation is we’ll see the 211, and possibly the 405 and 411 stay put as is and the other buses that go to lionel groulx (like the 425 or 485) either rerouted or eliminated in favour of other options. The “feeling” im getting from the STM is they dont want soo many buses on the highways to Cote Vertu or Lionel Groulx anymore; in particular I feel like theyre targeting buses like 409 425 468 470, or 485. The 211 405 411 don’t seem like great candidates for rerouting or elimination to me especially since the REM may not ever go to Dorval unfortunately
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A lot of the concerns people seem to have with the redesign favoring fast direct connections to line A over line 2 and line 1 could be fixed with a line 2 extension to Bois-Franc, a line A extension to Dorval and maybe a line 1 extension to Lasalle. Short of a complete overhaul of the West Island street grid, it would made this bus network redesign a lot more simple.
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Fully in agreement with this. Metro to Bois-Franc in particular would make the need of buses from “northern” west island to the metro moot as the REM would remain the fastest way to get to access the metro. 68 needs to stay to connect cartierville to pierrefonds but every other bus like the 409 468 470 475 and even maybe some regular lines like 72 can be better rerouted to improve w.i->Rem service, and then have people take the REM to the metro.
Rem to Dorval would also allow us freer license to cut buses going from Dorval to Lionel (we can keep the a20 hov lanes to taunt drivers even if we dont have buses using them anymore lul). Not necessarily as impactful as orange line to bois franc but the extra buses can be quite useful if repurposed appropriately.
Green line to lasalle would help the lachine/lasalle reform I suppose; though I don’t think this would actually affect the west island reform at all tbqh.
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Welcome to Agora, and I am SO cool with mods to the map. Pointing out wierd things on the existing or proposed maps is exactly the discussion I wanted to spur.
Here’s my original GIMP xcf file if you want to play with the layers for the different routes.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11SOZpSi9a-za9hdayOLAbX1SXURb9QfZ/view?usp=sharing
St. Charles:
By proposing a frequent St.-Charles/Pierrefonds through route, I was partly a critique of CDPQi and how they planned their stations. There is a crying need to good north-south connections by transit, and by forcing buses on long detours to REM stations, it’s very hard to improve on that situation. There should have been a REM station at St.-Charles.
The more serious argument for it is that the 68, as you currently have drawn it, doesn’t end at the REM either. Is it more important to connect Pierrefonds with the end of Chateau-Pierrefonds, or is it more important to connect it to the businesses along St.-Charles (or somewhere else)? In this way, I don’t see it as a counter-productive route, but rather a key to intra West-Island travel.
Finally, yes, the southern part of Saint-Charles needs a frequent bus to the REM (the northern parts point east-west to the REM). Your version of the 211 and mine both work. Mine is about 2 minutes slower to get downtown, but provides additional connectivity to important destinations along Hymus and the Des Sources buses. I’m not sure if that outweighs service to Fairview.
68: I agree, this can be through run, with service every 30 min as today east of Roxboro. I was imagining this as a timed transfer, just to ensure reliability on the core Pierrefonds stretch.
Access vs. Speed:
On both the Pierrefonds/Gouin and 216/217 choices, there’s a question of access vs. speed in designing bus routes. A route can be as fast as lightning, but is useless if people cannot directly access it.
In the Gouin/Pierrefonds case, there’s a suffient number of riders on the bus that want to get between St.-Jean and Roxboro as quickly as possible that sticking to Pierrefonds probably makes sense, certainly if sufficient service hours are available to also serve Gouin.
On the 216, there is a very serious access problem. If the only way to get onto the 216 is from Kirkland, Fairview (WB only), and Côte-Vertu, it means large detours for anyone trying to get on from areas nearby such as Dollard-des-Orneaux or Dorval. It really does need to access des Sources REM, or at a minimum Fairview in both directions as today. Whether the same bus serves TCH to the west and east of des Sources is somewhat arbetrary in my mind.
Dorval: Agreed. It’s not fleshed out, and I haven’t touched the 412 or peak-only express routes. There are no details yet as to how buses would be able to access the YUL REM station to determine whether it’s worth trying to connect to it (with anything other than the 204).
I could make a similar argument for services to the industrial area of Saint-Laurent. We don’t know enough yet how it will be rearranged, so I prefered not to suppose that the 72 would still be around to serve St-François Rd.
209: Yes, I’m even more convinced that this need to be a core route. In my previous plan, I was trying to count bus service hours to not exceed existing staffing levels, and a frequent 209 was just below the cutoff in priority. With a reduction in express bus services, it should be possible to fund it, at least as far as Dorval.
215: Agreed. This was an artifact of both the existing routing and the changes made in rev3. I would also move the 208 to run down Hyman then, so that the 215 and 208 can combine their frequencies on that stretch.
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West Islanders to have say in bus network redesign
With no parking available at some REM stations, getting to a station by bus presents a challenge to STM and commuters.
Montreal Gazette • West Island Gazette •John Meagher • Oct 12, 2022 • 13 minutes ago
Construction of the REM along Highway 40 in Kirkland as seen this past summer. PHOTO BY DAVE SIDAWAY /Montreal Gazette
West Islanders will finally get a chance to weigh in on changes they’d like to see to Montreal’s bus network.
The public is invited to sign up for public consultations held by the Société de transport de Montréal (STM) which is planning to redesign the city’s sprawling bus network in anticipation of the future Réseau express métropolitain (REM).
The REM light-rail system will feature 26 stations across the Greater Montreal area, linking downtown Montreal with the suburbs. It includes stations in the West Island and Trudeau International Airport. The REM’s West Island line is scheduled to go into operation in 2024, as is the Deux-Montagnes branch which has two local stations: Pierrefonds-Roxboro and Sunnybrooke.
Dollard-des-Ormeaux Mayor Alex Bouttausci is encouraging West Islanders to participate in the consultation process, which will lay the foundation for future public transport in the area.
“The STM is using these consultations to find out what the community needs and wants in relation to the future REM stations,” said Bottausci, who also sits on the board of the STM.
With minimal or no public parking set aside for motorists at some West Island REM stations, ferrying commuters to a station by bus will be a key challenge for the STM. The park-and-ride option at the Fairview Pointe-Claire and Kirkland stations still remains undetermined, while a combined 700 parking spots (approximately) will be available at des Sources station in Pointe-Claire and L’Anse-à-l’Orme in Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, according to REM officials.
Bottausci said the lack of station parking means bus service is crucial to the REM’s success. “If you don’t provide a (bus) connection, no one has a way to get to it,” he said. “Then it won’t be used, right?”
“Nobody’s excited just yet (about the REM) because we’re still in that exploratory phase as a community. The STM’s role is connecting people to the REM stations.”
Bottausci said current bus service in many parts of the West Island leaves residents wanting.
“The STM has not been able to provide proper, let’s call it, a proper means of transportation. As much as they’ve tried, they’ve been unable to. The West Island is vast. The territory is quite vast and if get into every little nook and cranny, good luck to you. Your overhead costs are going to be massive.”
Bottausci said the REM will finally provide a rapid light-rail link to downtown Montreal, the airport, and other parts of Greater Montreal area.
“Finally, we’ll have this amazing link with the REM as a point of distribution,” he said. “But how do we get to the little nook or cranny, how do we facilitate the transfer from all these little areas to the REM? That’s the next step.”
The STM said public consultations are being held with a number of new public transportation projects in Montreal in mind.
“In the coming months, a number of major public transit projects will be commissioned, including the REM, the Pie-IX BRT, and in a few years, the Blue line extension,” the STM stated on its website. “Deployment of these projects, your mobility needs, and urban development will have an impact on how you use bus service. Now is therefore the ideal time to rethink the bus network together to make it even more attractive and better adapted to changes on the Island of Montréal.”
People must register online for the public consultations. For more information, visit stm.info.
Here is a list of consultation dates for West Island cities and boroughs:
Baie-D’Urfé, Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue and Senneville residents will be consulted Oct. 13 at 6:30 p.m.
Dollard-des-Ormeaux, Pierrefonds-Roxboro and Île-Bizard-Ste-Geneviève residents will be consulted Oct. 20 at 6:30 p.m.
Pointe-Claire, Kirkland and Beaconsfield residents will be consulted Oct. 27 at 6:30 p.m.
Citizens can also participate online through the STM’s Let’s chat platform until Nov. 13.
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There is no regular bus service in Senneville and most of the homes here are single-family dwellings spread out on large lots.
Some residents doubt improving transit service in this community would make much sense.
‘’What are they going do? They’re going to run shuttle buses every 15 minutes, every half hour, every hour? I don’t think people have the time to wait,’’ Anders Lafon told Global News.
That’s optimistic.
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I’m not someone to really ever be on the side of not improving transit, but Senneville has around 600 dwellings, with more than 50% having more than $100k in income per year in a near rural density area where transit would be near useless anyway.
Honestly, paying a taxi driver all day to shuttle people to St-Anne is adequate transit for the demand you’ll ever see here. Otherwise, paid parking at the REM is probably the next best option.
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For Senneville definitely, exo1 is just a 10 minute walk from the most urbanized part of the municipality, and there’s also the 212 that could be extended to Anse-à-l’Orme station. With all the densification in St-Anne, the STM will need to increase the frequency there anyway, so Senneville will incidentally benefit from the redesign without having to add service in Senneville proper.
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While I agree with you, note that Senneville Road is very narrow, and for the most part winding, with no sidewalks and no shoulders. Many drivers enjoy “country drives” there at well over the posted 40 km/h speed limit, and it is one of the most popular “back country” cycling routes on the island. It is not pedestrian friendly whatsoever. The municipality will never approve of roadworks to make it wider and more safe, with proper storm drains instead of the ditches in which hundreds of mature trees now grow.
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True. Honestly I’m not expecting much for Senneville. Maybe they could implement some traffic calming measures on the cheap.
I also think the City and its not-boroughs need to have a serious conversation with owners about easement for multi-use paths along narrow arterials like Lakeshore.
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Would people lump Baie-d’Urfe in the same lump as Senneville, i.e. only deserving transit by being on the way to St.-Anne-de-Bellevue and it’s destinations?
If we wanted to be serious about making transit accessible in Baie-d’Urfe, I’d suggest running buses on Victoria instead of on Lakeshore, and paving over Devon Park so that the connection can be made eastward into Beaconsfield.
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That looks very similar to Gouin along the bois de Saraguay. Yet, the city is adding a sidewalk on one side to make it safer for pedestrians. I don’t see why Senneville shouldn’t be able to do the same.
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Wouldn’t it be better to have a bus on Lakeshore and surrey/ Beaurepaire?
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That’s the solution I currently have on my proposed map, but it is a more expensive way to provide an equivalent amount of access as running a single line down the middle of the neighbourhood.
I’ve been mulling different part of the map, and I don’t see how Surrey/Beaurepaire can warrant 30 min service at the expense of say 15 minute service to either Ile Bizard or the 218. Shifting over the existing Lakeshore route onto Victoria costs far less, just about 3 minutes extra travel time for Beaconsfielders to make it to St.AdeB, if the connection through Devon Park is made.
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