HFR is no milk run… it literally bypasses all the lakeshore communities… and it’s stated goal is to compete with planes and cars. Of course I don’t suggest we stop flying to YTZ as of now, when there is no serious competition from VIA. HFR changes the game though, makes the train more competitive and much greener. Once it’s up and running, and if it does compete well with planes and cars, then I suggest we look into the closure of the island airport.
No train anywhere in the world can compete with cars the way you mention it. That’s the problem with any mass transportation mode, you can’t cover every square kilometer in a given territory. But that’s a planning issue more than it is a train issue.
Agreed, we aren’t Europe or Asia, and we never will be. That’s my problem with the whole “HFR” concept: it’s not attractive enough to compete with other modes. What we are ready to spend six or even 12 billion on to call “high frequency rail” is what other countries call “rail.” But unlike other countries that have multiple train terminals per city and interconnected intercity, regional, suburban, and metro rail systems, we have unreliable, meandering buses, slow, poorly-connected peak-hour commuter trains, and a tiny metro system. Oh, and eventually, a poorly-integrated REM.
Again, I’d love it if rail got good enough in this country (in this corridor even) to supplant other modes, but it is unrealistic. Making potential users drive all the way into city centres to take a train that is marginally quicker than driving (ignoring all of a private car’s advantages), that is much more expensive than Megabus, or that is slower than flying YUL-YTZ, isn’t worth $12 billion. HFR, as proposed, is really throwing good money after bad. $12 billion of federal money, when combined with provincial funding, could totally revamp regional rail in both the Golden Horseshoe and Greater Montreal, and benefit millions of people on a daily basis, not just 10,000 potential VIA riders.
Aye, there’s the rub. HSR in many places is cheaper than driving. Instead of subsidizing petrol to keep prices (and thus the CPI) artificially low, they tax the shit out of petrol and subsidize the trains! I mentioned elsewhere that taking HSR from Rome to Milan takes less time and costs less than paying for gas and highway tolls. That is how you make the train more attractive than driving, but it has to compete on speed, and comfort, and convenience as well.
We’re not arguing about the same thing. My point was a direct reference to the “last mile” (convenience). Yours is about cost.
As for speed and comfort… HFR’s goal is to be better on both counts. Via’s product offering is already much more comfortable than driving a few hours along the 401 anyway.
We are both arguing about (and in favour of) convenience. Making people get to one of the limited HFR stations without good transit options makes HFR less convenient than Megabus, or one of the multitude of shuttle van services, or of course, driving one’s own car. HFR will be convenient for those whose origins and destinations are close to downtown Toronto and Montreal, or very close to Eglinton (Midtown) and Dorval. Anything more than a few minutes’ drive or maybe up to a half hour on local transit, and folks will shop around — whether, bus, shuttle van, private car, or air.
That’s the point at which I feel “cost” becomes an important part of the equation. Again, $12 billion is a HELL of a lot of federal money to spend to add just 10,000 riders to a train that isn’t the only mode of transport for those who choose to travel between the two metropolises. $12 billion federal dollars (so perhaps $25 or even $35 billion when combined with provincial or even private funds) could build several rapid mass transit lines in both cities that could benefit hundreds of thousands or even millions of people per day who depend on transit to get to school and jobs, go to healthcare appointments, or shop. Mass transit in cities is a necessity; a fast(ish) train between two large cities is a luxury.
Downtown Toronto and Montreal together account for something like 900,000 jobs and millions of visitors. They generate millions of trips annually between the two, and not even 3 million of those are by train. The potential is there.
The figure is somewhere between 6 and 12 billion, and we don’t know what that entails. Is it 12 billion because it involves a new tunnel under downtown Montreal? Or is it 12 billion simply to rebuild the Havelock sub? We don’t really know yet. That’s why I’m discussing (not arguing, you’re right!) more the strategy and the concept than the costs for now.
I’m just curious what you would think is an appropriate solution for the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor?
I’m in the “go big or go home” camp. As I’ve repeated a few times, a major investment in trains that only roughly equals the total travel time of other modes is simply not good enough, and thus a waste of federal monies. As long as petroleum fuels’ prices are kept artificially low, and there are no user fees to help cover the billions spent on highways, people in this country will simply always choose to drive between these three cities. Those who can’t drive will hop on Megabus before the train. Fewer people take VIA in the corridor on a daily basis than the number of brave souls willing to take the woeful exo5 Mascouche line.
I don’t think that with the HFR project, they will still manage to have 100% dedicated tracks. Don’t forget that in the entrances of cities and downtowns, like Toronto, Montreal and Quebec, the great majority of tracks will still belong to CP and CN: for example when coming from Toronto to Montreal, in the West Island, VIA will still have to use the CN Kingston & Montreal subdivision along Highway 20 to enter Central station. There’s no other train corridor available on this portion other than the existing one. Or even in Quebec City, when going to Gare Du Palais, CN will still use and own the existing corridor to access the port of Quebec City for cargo ships and other industries in the East of the city. In Toronto, many of the train tracks belongs to CN, CP and Go Transit.
Exactly. And that is one of my biggest issues with it. That is a huge federal expenditure that could be used so much better in so many ways, and yet it’s not even 90% of a project.
Like I’ve said before: $12 billion of federal money, when combined with provincial and municipal money, could build hundreds of kilometres of true BRT, double many municipal bus fleets, build many kilometres of LRT lines, or multiple heavy rail metro lines. These $6 billion or $12 billion could realistically benefit millions of people per day instead of just 5,000 people a day.
When I say “go big or go home,” I mean exactly that: spend the $50 billion and expropriate as necessary, construct new terminals just outside the core (connected to mass transit), and build a true high speed rail line between Montreal and Toronto. It won’t need to go directly from Union to Centrale if it takes just 2½ hours.
I don’t think you’re being pragmatic and realistic here: what is the meaning to spend $50 billion just to expropriate and then to build completely new corridors and transit hub outside of the core of the cities, while the purpose of a projet like this IS to connect the core of the cities, especially with high speed rail? It sounds to me rather like a waste of public funds and poor planning.
However I think there might be solutions to acquire some existing tracks like at Pointe-St-Charles: CN frequently uses the Montreal subdivision at the exit of Victoria Bridge to Central Station. A friend of mine mentionned that it rarely uses the Butler spur that goes around the Exo and VIA Rail maintenance centers (except if there’s too much traffic), as shown in this picture:
There are many underused corridors and train tracks like these on which freight trains traffic can be moved on, while existing (or even underused) corridors can be used more for passenger trains.
Let’s not forget that we still don’t know what the difference is between 6 billion and 12 billion. Does the 12 billion include full electrification and a new corridor within cities? Does it include the acquisition of ROWs from the big railroad companies? We simply don’t know.
I’m purposely not being realistic. 200 km/h maximum speeds is not “high speed rail.” 4½ hours Centrale to Union is not competitive with other modes. $6B or $12B for 90% electrification/dedicated tracks 10% diesel/freight-shared tracks to boost ridership by 10,000 a day is not a good use of federal money for a project that was hamstrung from Day 1. This is a plain case of electioneering. We’re beating a dead horse here.
Is it fewer? In 2019, 4.7 million rode somewhere in the Québec-Windsor corridor, of which the majority (3.7 million) were between Montreal and Toronto, or just over 5000 per direction per day. Before the July announcement, interested parties were suggesting that this number would triple within 10 years of the HFR opening (2040). With the July announcement came the very nebulous claim of “increasing ridership in the corridor to 17 million a year by 2059.”
