How many people a day are projected to be taking HSR between Quebec and Ottawa or Quebec and Toronto? It’s a simple as that. How does the train from Montreal get to Quebec today? What is the problem with the train going from Montreal to Quebec today? These are answers that should be made very clear before we commit to spending $10 billion or $20 billion more on an HSR project to extend it from Montreal to Quebec.
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It’s slow 
It also doesn’t pass by Trois-Rivières, a decently sized city ~150,000. Overall, the route would be a no brainer if we didn’t insist it had to be to Japanese Tokaido maglev 80000km/h no curves and a tunnel directly to gare centrale standards… Seriously, the route is shorter, we could have an auxiliary station outside the city centre, it could have a few <200km/h sections if need be. It doesn’t need to be a 20 billion dollar section of the project. Just the size of the cities being connected basically ensures it will have a minimum amount of success
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Dedicated Tracks for the Corridor - An Overview of High Frequency Rail (HFR) in Canada
On February 17, 2023, the Request for Qualifications for HFR was launched to pre-qualify up to 3 bidders for the Request for Proposals. As such, it is a great time to reflect on what is HFR and what it will mean for Canada.
High Frequency Rail (HFR) is the current plan to improve passenger rail in the Corridor. By using dedicated tracks between Quebec City and Toronto, the travel experience is bound to improve considerably. With more frequent, reliable and faster trains, it is expected that an increasing number of people will choose to ride the rails instead of flying or driving, an important element in addressing the climate crisis. HFR will be the most transformative change to passenger rail in Canada since the incorporation of VIA Rail in 1977.
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Great. Nothing says we can’t improve train service to Quebec from Montreal. But are we going to sacrifice the main benefits of a game-changing HSR project between downtown Montréal and Toronto just so a few dozen people a day can get from Québec City to Toronto directly via HSR (at a further cost of perhaps $20 billion)? We should build HSR downtown to downtown between the two metropolises, and spend a significantly smaller amount to improve train service from Québec to downtown Montréal. Southwestern Ontario’s population is several times that of Québec City; what makes us so righteous to demand HSR all the way from Québec — at the cost of avoiding downtown Montréal — while Hamilton, London, KW, or Windsor should be entirely deprived? “They have GO!” Oh, ok, so those millions should take slow trains and transfer at Union, but the 37 people a day going QC-TO get HSR, while the thousands a day we are hoping to attract to this service between Montreal and Toronto will have to schlep up to Cremazie to take it.
Can we just admit it now, none of this will ever get done?
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I don’t agree, I see a window of opportunity. CDPQi for instance needs a win outside of REM A, so I expect them to present a compelling project. Since they own Alstom, it will likely be HSR, at least in the MTL-To segment.
And I am in the camp of not going to downtown Montreal. Sad but we have, urbanistically, painted Gare Centrale in a corner, and we reap what we sow. Gare Centrale itself is a shell of what it was.
The case for a downtown destination would be that CDPQi owns the railway bridge…
It is pretty accepted that if there was a northern terminus, it would be for the Quebec city stretch only. How many people are serious going to be traveling by train from this side of the corridor to the other. The Toronto route has a straight shot to the city centre.
Are we really this against building high speed rail between two ideally spaced cities of 4.3 million and 850,000 with a stop of 150,000 in between? This would be a no brainer in France
Given that this project involves 1. Canada’s federal government 2. Trains in Canada and 3. Anything Canadian whatsoever, there is a 75% chance it doesn’t get built just by default. But, if we can’t compromise it has a 100% chance of not getting built.
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Wait. I’m not trying to always sound like the resident cynic, but we can’t even get the most basic projects done in this city, province, region, country, and now we want not one, but to high speed rail train stations in this city? No I’m confused. Let’s build Montreal to Toronto, I have nothing against that. Someone has to show me the justification for spending tens of billions of dollars for high-speed rail from Quebec city to Toronto that sacrifices running into downtown Montreal. It just doesn’t make sense. How many people need to get between Toronto and Quebec city by rail on a daily basis that would warrant the extra expense and the need to divert away from the centre of Montreal? There is no logic to this idea whatsoever. If we were all in on rail in this country, I’d say sure, let’s just keep building.
The fact remains that if we get one chance at a project, it should be the best project for the money we might get, and be between the centres of the two largest metropolises in the country. We should not dilute the benefits of that project because of some ethereal notion that the ridership between Quebec City and Ontario will just magically appear to warrant these major deviations. Again, show me the numbers.
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Why would this part of the project only be warranted by travellers coming from further west? I’m saying even if the TGV was built somehow to pass directly through gare centrale to Québec, the amount of travellers coming from all the way in Toronto riding end to end would be negligible. It’s outside of the range or reasonable travel on high speed rail honestly. It’s within flying distance. The Montréal to Quebec city section would be justified by travellers between these two cities, which are more than large enough to sustain high speed rail. If the train had a connection to the rest of the system somehow, maybe Ottawa to Québec would also be lucrative but it still wouldn’t be a make or break.
It’s the same way the Acela corridor operates. Very few people are traveling from DC all the way to Boston…
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I just don’t see the government of Québec ever accepting a TGV projet that does not include Québec. We had that discussion very early in the process when Via Rail was selecting a route. I would rather accept a compromise on the location of the station then see the projet getting blown appart because a politician absolutely wants the TGV to go downtown. We simply cannot keep tracking on requirements to the project.
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I think you’re missing my point though. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have nice things, just that I don’t understand the desire to build high speed rail all the way through Montreal to Quebec city via a station along Highway 40 instead of downtown.
Again, we could spend a couple of billion dollars and build a dedicated intercity express line from downtown Montreal to Quebec city, without the astronomical expense of true HSR (for a segment that doesn’t have the traffic to justify it). Those wishing to travel further west would just have to change platforms at central station like people do all over Europe and Asia and Oceania. I’m starting to run my head into a brick wall here, I’m not saying we don’t deserve or need high speed rail, I’m saying that we shouldn’t ruin a high-speed rail project from Toronto to Montreal just so a few trains a day could go to Quebec city for a few passengers.
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Who cares if they don’t accept it if they don’t pay for it. If they are paying their share for it then it’s a moot point.
What pisses me off in this debate is that we still have no numbers/study on the addressable market.
Agreed, the segments should be tackled independently.
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I’m beginning to get bored with this discussion lol. We can’t afford hospitals and schools in this country but now we want to spend $60 billion for high-speed rail for perhaps 10,000 people a day. There’s too much broken in this country that we can’t fix by building shiny things.
Bingo.
I agree with you 
it’s a good thing that wasn’t what I was saying
They could operate separately. If they want to be connected for maintenance purposes or train storage, there could be a track connection through the west island. But operations wise, we don’t have to send trains from Toronto north through the island.
The cost of hsr is due to the grade separation, all the viaducts and smooth curves. It’s the level of infrastructure that allows the trains to go that fast. You can have segments on a hsr line that aren’t to that standard. Literally the majority of Acela isn’t to that standard. It will just be slower and you will save billions of dollars. That is why I’m saying nothing will happen if we don’t compromise. If we insist on having a Shinkansen or Frecciarossa level service through the entire corridor, the Windsor - Quebec corridor suddenly became only a Montréal - Toronto HSR.
I agree, but it’s miserable to say out loud. Developed countries that have much less to work with don’t seem to have to decide between trains and hospitals. If it makes it any better, I don’t think not building HSR will make healthcare or education any better. We will just be older but now with no decent infrastructure
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Has anyone considered a two-phase process?
Phase 1: Montréal-Québec trains stop at Côte-de-Liesse, Toronto-Montréal trains stop at Gare Centrale.
Phase 2: We build some kind of tunnel between Gare Centrale and Parc and have through-running trains…
That way you get high speed rail on both lines and ultimately you connect them…
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Even though I favour distinct segments management/operation, I do greatly favour 1 train station, which economically-speaking should be away from downtown Montreal.
Someone who travels Toronto-Quebec should change platforms, not train stations.
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If there is a change at Côte-de-Liesse and we extend the REM to Dorval it could be a simple one seat connection.
However, trains could also stop at Côte-de-Liesse and terminate at Dorval… It would be useful for those taking HSR to reach YUL.
Il ne faut pas oublier que la construction d’une Gare du Nord pourrait servir de moteur de développement et de transformation pour un quartier.
Pour le moment, il semble y avoir deux options pour le Nord avec le REM, soit Côte-de-Liesse (10 min jusqu’à la Gare Centrale/Centre-ville) ou Canora (7 min jusqu’à la Gare Centrale/Centre-ville). Personnellement, ca ne me semble pas dramatique personnellement. Il y a aussi plus de terrain pour construire une vrai gare.
Sinon, il y a l’option de la Gare Parc, mais sans un lien rapide et directe au centre-ville.
Avec ce projet, il faut aussi se projeter dans le futur et le potentiel de développement que celui-ci va créer pour toutes les villes qui auront une Gare. On crée une connexion social, économique, etc avec toutes ces villes. Personnellement, je ne discréditerais pas le corridor Montréal-Québec. De plus, il semble être le segment avec les meilleurs condition pour accueillir un TGV… dans les documents d’Alstom, c’est que du TGV mis à part dans les 3 villes…
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It’s simple, the provincial government won’t ever consider seeing the QC-MTL segment as being separate from the Toronto-Montreal one. They get to extract some free stuff from the federal government and the provincial governments love that more than anything else, they’ll milk it for all it’s worth. You also run the risk of being cancelled if you’re not part of the core project, just look at HS2.
You could say the federal government could go ahead without the provincial support to which I would say CDPQ under this current government is far from being as independant as it was during the Sabia years and Alstom’s largest share holder is CDPQ. Would Legault/Fitzgibon be spiteful enough to stand in the way of a project to would provide a number of jobs in QC? I wouldn’t put it past them.
As to straying away from the optimal scenario, you’d be surprised (probably not) how politics and some financing could lead someone or a project so far astray.
Voila Mon grain de sel: HSR to Ottawa and Toronto ends at Lucien l’allier or gare centrale
HSR to Quebec ends at Lucien l’allier
In Europe, hsr lines mostly just follow existing lines to downtown and run at the same speed as regional trains, no need for huge grade separations in the city, or sweeping corners, or new viaducts. You leave that infra for the hundreds of kilometres of farmland to be traversed outside of the city.
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