The need to have a direct downtown link won’t be present anymore for those 2 years before YUL station opens. You can send buses to Des Sources and transfer to the REM to get Downtown probably faster than the 747.
You can also save money in the process too to inject more service elsewhere.
I don’t think it could ever be faster. Once buses from the airport or Dorval get on the highway, it takes about 15 minutes to get to Lionel-Groulx. Even at rush hour I find that segment rarely takes more than 20 minutes because with the reserved lanes, and according to the 747 schedule it’s 17 minutes total. If you then take the metro to Bonaventure, it’s about 30-35 minutes door-to-door.
It’s at least a 10-minute drive to Sources station from the airport, plus 23 minutes from there to get to Gare Centrale on the REM. Frequency at Des Souces will be every 10-15 minutes depending on the time of day, so with that and other variables like traffic, you’re looking at almost an hour to do YUL - Downtown.
Je pense qu’il y a définitivement un potentiel pour un lien bus entre YUL et le REM. Ça ne se limite pas au West-Island puisque ça sert aussi au Nord et à l’Est de l’île. Étant donné la connection entre la ligne bleue et le REM, ça en fait une option avantageuse pour quelqu’un qui part de Villeray ou Saint-Michel. De même que pour les habitants de Ahunstic qui peuvent prendre la 121 pour se rendre à Montpellier. Ce seront des habitudes de déplacements qui seront ensuite cristallisées avec la branche vers l’aéroport.
You can ask people who use the 747 and it varies a lot depending on congestion. I don’t think there are any reserved lanes between the Saint-Pierre interchange and the airport.
It’s also just a matter of optimizing the network, you’re better off using less buses to drop people off at Des Sources after a 10 minute drive than bringing buses all the way to Gare d’autocars.
It would be a temporary measure anyway.
It would necessarily need to be a direct express shuttle, preferably with smaller, lighter (midi-)buses. The reserved lanes on Sources disappear between St-Louis/Reverchon and the 20 – because Pointe-Claire couldn’t give two craps about finally building the third lane in each direction (and needing to collaborate with Dorval for a tiny segment on the northbound side).
I can’t say what happens after the 747 goes north of the tracks in Dorval, but the 211/405/411/425/485 are how I get downtown and the reserved lanes work despite the crunch point between Lachine and the St-Pierre interchange. Westbound is a different story, but eastbound buses are pretty efficient.
I think running buses only to Sources would be a bad idea. I don’t know how useful the service all the way to Berri is, but I’m inclined to think the best solution would be to have shuttles between Sources and YUL in addition to the 747x to Lionel-Groulx.
If ADM really gave a sh!t and had anybody in charge with any brains, they’d fence off the Belmont access road and make it connect to Stuart-Graham near Charlie gate. It’d take almost no planning, a little collaboration between Infra and ADM – leave STM and ARTM out of it – maybe a month of road and fence work, and not need any studies. The REM des Sources shuttle would use the reserved lanes as far as possible, then turn at Belmont and enter the private road at the fence, dropping/picking up passengers on the arrivals level in front of the Marriott. If Pte-Claire had any balls, the reserved lanes could be built quickly between St-Louis/Reverchon and Belmont, and a limited shuttle service could remain operational even after the Aéroport station opens.
Why?
As soon as the REM opens near the airport there is just no need to keep going downtown. There’s a 20km difference between the two trips (Des Sources vs Gare d’autocars), so the service you can add elsewhere on the network is worth the user hassle of forcing an extra transfer from the airport. Plus you get a connection to the Blue line as a bonus.
I don’t think it is worth the extra transfer though. It reduces the attractiveness of the service a lot. Adding a transfer of any kind to get downtown increases the perceived duration of the trip, and in this case, the trip time could almost double depending on traffic and wait times.
I agree that running the 747 all the way to Berri might not be useful, but it doesn’t make sense to also eliminate the connection with Lionel-Groulx and force tourists to detour through a 2-to-3-mode trip to get to their destination, in part because they won’t. Those who can will call an Uber. With shuttles to both Lionel-Groulx and Sources, people going downtown will get there as fast as the current infrastructure allows, while also adding a more direct route for anyone travelling to the areas north of downtown and to the Blue Line.
I highly doubt that given it’s a 33-35 minute transit ride plus maybe an added 10 minutes in wait times/congestion. The 747 is planned to be 33 minutes to Central station at peak times, and that can vary. That’s not close to double the time.
I think we can agree that most tourists are going Downtown (McGill or Central station). In this case it’s only one transfer between a bus and a metro, hardly anything dramatic if the transfer is included with the fare. Yes, wait times are 10 to 15 minutes on that branch but you would have to be unlucky to wait that long. Buses can also be timed with REM arrivals at the station.
The need to have a direct downtown link won’t be present anymore for those 2 years before YUL station opens. You can send buses to Des Sources and transfer to the REM to get Downtown probably faster than the 747.
From my experience, no, it can never possibly be faster. I take the existing 747 alll the time as my “normal” commute to/from uni (STM 209->STM 747 at YUL) so I have some experience with the line and how it performs (both at peak and off-peak).
747 today:
About 15-20 mins form lionel groulx with no traffic (11 mins was the fastest i ever recorded in my commutes, eastbound though). With traffic, maybe 25-35 mins, but even then that’s way better what follows:
Shuttle from Sources REM:
26 minutes from GC to sources + ~15-20 mins from sources to YUL by a nonstop bus (that 10 min google maps time posted above seems unrealistic, unless i’m just a really slow driver it usually takes me 15-25 by car) + whatever unkown time is spent lost waiting for the transfer bus.
If the shuttle has the same frequency as 747 then it’ll vary from 5-35 mins lol. Even if it’s 5 mins though, you’d be spending an hour on a good day to get to the airport when you factor in all the transfers and wait times (including up to 10-15min wait for the REM). If there’s traffic to get into the airport (and the shuttle bus takes the airport’s “normal” entrance), or if the shuttle bus isn’t running often and you miss the transfer from the REM, then that’s just salt on the wound.
It would be saving money compared to running buses from berri uqam, true. However, if we wanted to save money we could just cut all buses doing berri-lionel, as the route from lionel-YUL is similar in duration to sources-YUL, at which point the switch would not be saving any money (and the total trip with the REM and transfers would be much much much slower than the existing 747).
C’est possible mais personellement, je ne suis pas nécessairement d’accord. Le problème étant encore que ça va prendre plus te temps attendre le REM vers des sources, faire le long trajet à Sources, attendre la navette dont on ne sait pas la fréquence, et faire le long trajet à YUL.
Même chose pour ceux qui doivent prendre un bus pour se rendre à a un station de REM tel Montpellier ou Bois-franc, sauf que là on doit aussi prendre en compte qu’il faut porter ses (parfies très larges) bagages dans des bus souvent très achalandées (64, 121…). Avec un REM direct à YUL, ça fait beaucoup de sens, mais avec un hell commute, c’est peu attrayant.
Cepandant, je cède que ceux qui habitent à distance de marche d’un REM sur la branche A40 ou sur l’arrondissement saint laurent peuvent trouver un tel navette utile. Cela dit je crois quand même qu’on est limité à peu de monde rendu là.
Kind of the same thing as the other guy was saying, but basically (unless I’m missing something) you can just short turn all 747’s at lionel groulx for the same if not way better cost saving effect. No need to move them to sources and force everyone into a hell commute, lol.
Another option is cardinal, which is ironically the route that is posted in that google maps screenshot above (notice that it doesnt run on A20 but just barely above it… lol). Cardinal is ok but it’s a million stop signs so it’s meh, it’s a good option if A20 has traffic I suppose.
Doubling is actually pretty accurate imo, and off-peak it’s more llike triple or quadruple lol, since that hour commute just gets worse off peak when the REM’s frequency and the shuttle’s frequency both drop making transfers even more hard to catch.
The way I see it this shuttle was intended to be there on top of 747, while waiting for the REM to enter service. To that I feel like the targeted clientele is super slim because again, without the direct REM access, it’s a hell commute that’s really unappealing to take vs an uber/taxi/asking someone for a lift.
Could it be worth it? Maybe, extra options are usually good, but I think I still maintain my earlier position that due to how much running a shuttle would cost, improving the existing STM 209 that does almost exactly the same route would probably make more sense.
I take Cardinal to Albert-de-Niverville every day. So does the 204 (though, like most West Island buses, it serpentines through the neighbourhood). It’s not ideal. That said, I usually drive way-off-peak, and Sources/A40 to Transport Canada parking (Albert-de-Niverville near the Marriott) takes me around nine minutes – including the many stop signs and the 40 km/h speed limit. A shuttle using the reserved lane and a buses-only road on the airport perimeter could likely do it in five or six minutes.
Ah okok yeah, if that’s where I think it is (where the 204 and 209 terminus is) then that explains the discrepancy I think, since it takes about 5 more mins to actually circle around to romeo vachon and deal with the traffic to get to the arrivals level, bringing it to 15. On peak, closer to 20 or if it’s really bad, 25.
A shuttle through belmont I think would be interesting, but it’s still quite some ways to go. I think 5 or 6 mins for a bus is pushing it a bit, but it’s definitely possible; at or under 10 should definitely be doable, depending if settling for that area by nav canada is ok (it’s a bit of a walk from the terminal doors but not too bad IMHO)
Pourquoi imposer un transfert à Lionel-Groulx est moins pire qu’imposer un transfert au REM à Des Sources?
Le REM donne accès aux lignes verte, bleue et orange et à la Rive-Sud. Lionel-Groulx te donne accès aux lignes verte et orange. Ce n’est pas pour dire que le REM est mieux, mais c’est juste beaucoup plus stratégique de se rabattre à Des Sources.
Pour les temps de trajet, on s’entend que c’est très hypothétique de dire que ce sera le double, autant que dire qu’il n’y aura presque pas d’impact. C’est clair que doubler le temps de trajet pour les usagers n’est pas acceptable, on s’entend.
Je ne comprends pas trop le « hell commute » dont on parle ici. C’est le boulevard Des Sources, pas le Métropolitain. Aménager des voies réservées, synchroniser les bus avec les arrivées REM, il y a plusieurs solutions possibles.
Je trouve que c’est un mélange de raisons. Le REM c’est plus stratégique si on commence à partir d’un station de REM, mais si on commence par un station de métro par contre, le REM c’est simplement un transfert de plus (metro → REM → navette, alors qu’à présent c’est metro → navette 747). Un transfert de plus n’est pas nécessairement la fin de monde mais la fréquence du REM n’est pas vraiment si bien que ça (chaque 10-15 minutes), et il y’a aussi le temps de parcours (je vais le discuter un peu plus prochainement).
I may be talking out of my rear end a bit on this one, mais je crois fortement que la plupart de gens qui vont utiliser la navette aura plus facilement accès au métro orange/verte que le REM, donc je ne voit pas le raison de privilégier un route qui aura un transfert de plus que l’actuel.
C’est vrai que le temps de trajet de la navette est hypothetique, mais prenons par exemple le temps de parcours du REM de la gare centrale à des sources lui seul, ce qui est déjà connu. C’est 26 22-23 minutes, ce qui est déja plus long que le 747 lui même (15 minutes sans traffic, 25 minutes avec traffic sur l’A20 et à l’aéroport).
Disons qu’on est très très malchanceux et que le 747 prend 35 minutes en total, ce qui ne m’est jamais arrivé ayant pris le 747 (même un jour ou il y’avait un accident sur l’A20 et la police dirigeait toutes les voies de traffic vers l’accotement ça nous a pris seulement 30 minute avec les retards). Il faut donc que le temps de correspondance entre des sources et la navette et le temps de trajet de la navette ensemble soit inférieure à 13-14 minutes pour être avantageux au statut quo. Ce qui me semble très difficile, presque impossible, honnêtement.
Des sources c’est exactement le sorte de boulevard ou les voies réservées c’est un “do nothing” solution. Il y’a presque jamais suffisamment de traffic sur des Sources au sud de l’A40 pour ralentir les bus, une voie réservé va sauver maybe 1 minute si on est chanceux lol.
Synchroniser les bus avec les arrivées REM c’est normalement possible, mais il me semble que synchroniser quoi que ça soit entre le bus et le REM serait peut-être un demande de trop. C’est un anecdote, mais lorsque j’ai pris le navette panama->gare centrale (les traveux de nuit sur le REM nous oblige à utiliser un navette temporariement), il me semble qu’il n’y a aucun synchronisation et c’est vraiment “just get lucky and plan 10 extra minutes in case you miss the stupid thing lol”
Le “hell commute” c’est pas le REM ou la navette seul, mais c’est l’ensemble de 1) un correspondance vers le REM qui risque d’etre un peu long si on attend 10-15 minutes, 2) un trajet de ~26~~ 22-23 minutes inutile au west island, 3) un correspondance qui risque de ne pas être synchronisé, et 4) un navette d’au moins 10-15 minutes vers l’aéroport. Le tout s’additionne à au moins une heure, facilement.
Je m’excuse en avance si je semble un peu “heated” mais c’est un cas ou j’habite le coin et je peut facilement, très facilement dire que c’est une mauvaise idée de remplacer la 747 avec un tel navette. L’avoir en sus du 747 peut être intéressant, c’est toujours bien d’avoir plus d’options, mais le cout risque de ne pas être minime donc j’ai un peu peur qu’on remplace un avec l’autre lol.
22 minutes jusqu’à McGill et 23 jusqu’à Gare Centrale selon le site du REM.
À 10h42 un dimanche, le trajet entre YUL et la Gare centrale en 747 est prévu durer 25 minutes.
Perso, je me fierais davantage sur l’horaire prévu par la STM (qui est ajusté selon le réel pour raisons de ponctualité) que des expériences personnelles. En pointe j’ai déjà mentionné que ça augmentait à 33 minutes.
On peut agree to disagree aussi 
My bad, je me suis trompé avec le temps de parcours de la branche YUL (ce qui est 26 minutes). J’ai écris les temps de trajet de mémoire, qui apparament n’est pas trop fiable LOL. Je m’excuse pour l’erreur.
Oui effectivelemt la STM donne un gros buffer (je vais poster un screenshot de transitapp qui démontre le fait bientôt). Présentement, un dimanche matin (j’avoue, not the best example because traffic is lowest), le STM prévois 17 minutes poir faire le trajet YUL->Lionel, mais les bus sont à 4 minutes d’avance, donc le temps de trajet “in practice” c’est 13 minutes.
Cepandant vous avez raison de se fier à l’horaire que mes expériences personelles. Il y’a peut être des nuances lors de mes trajets que j’ignore de mentionner parce que je ne les crois pas rélévant, par exemple le fait que je ne voyage pas en pointe trop souvent (mon horaire à l’université était un peu… disons bizarre xD, mias je dois toutefois voyager en pointe parfois donc j’ai de l’expérience avec les deux).
Yup I’m down to agree to disagree LOL. Personally it’s really hard for me to convince myself that this shuttle can be anything but a disaster, but i’m sure this is gonna be studied by people much smarter than me who will do a cost/risk/ridership analysis and figure out empirically what the best option is. For all I know maybe i’m missing or skipping over something that makes the shuttle a lot better than i’m giving it credit for
Here’s the scheenshot of transitapp showing that the buses at lionel RN are all arriving early. If you check an individual commute, say the one that should arrive at 10.09/10.13 AM, it left YUL at 9.56 AM, so it has a scheduled travel time of 17 mins and an actual travel time of 13 mins, which is about what I expect for a sunday morning commute lol.
It’s not a question of smarter, just people who have more data and are paid to do this 
For fun i followed that bus and it ended up arriving six minutes early, for a travel time of 11 minutes (down from 17). At this point it lowkey feels like cherry picking, since it’s a sunday morning (no traffic) and 11 minutes is already the best travel time i’ve ever had on a 747, but the point i’m sorta trying to make is that the 747 is a lot faster than people give it credit for. It’s a very good bus, even though the REM directly to YUL will be better in the end because it’ll me more consistent and more comfortable.
I do wonder if we could make temporary (or preferably permanent…) arrangements to lengthen the reserved lanes on A20 all the way to dorval circle, to improve travel time on the 747 in rush hour while waiting for the REM’s YUL branch to finish up
