I’ve always found it weird that we applaud when someone builds a four-storey something in Montreal Est or Tetrauville, and we are demanding a structured mass transit solution, but Cote-St-Luc has been wall-to-wall MDUs (8-12-16-20 storeys) for decades. It has a population of over 35,000 and a density of 5000/km² – even though more than a quarter of the city’s area is occupied by the CPKC yard and half of Meadowbrook Golf Course – and it’s not served by any decent transit. Not a train platform, no metro, or even really decent bus service. Even the bad sidewalks and intersections make the long walk to Montreal West station very unfriendly. But let’s look at how we can send metros over miles and miles of fields, lakes, and woods to get to Chambly or Vaudreuil, towns with about the same population but perhaps a quarter the density. I don’t get it.
Cote st lucs opportunity to get rapid transit is the blue line, that’s pretty much it. And the value of that extension is infinitely less than the blue line east extension (which is minimum guaranteeing the ridership of the 141). Also, there’s Hampstead somewhat in the way, plus the lower density northern parts of NDG. idk why the east keeps getting spoken down in these discussions too, as if there’s nothing there. Everything you said about cote st Luc is true about plenty of places in the east end, especially Montreal-nord which has many apartment buildings. And yet it’s much much lower income, and much larger. The entire east end is like 300k+ people with basically just busses.
Cote st Luc would have reliable, all day electric regional rail service if Canadian national and Canadian Pacific were not parasites on this country.
All of that is on top of the fact that almost anywhere on the island of Montreal deserves rapid transit service before Vaudreuil or Chambly. If someone comes accross an extra billion, and the whole island is criss crossed by metro lines, they can have it.
Nope. It’s not Canadian national and Canadian Pacific that are parasites. They are private companies that move millions of tonnes of critical goods everyday across our country and they are pretty damn good at it now.
Remember this always: it was the government that privatised the rails, it was the government that stopped funding passenger rail, and it is the government that refuses to spend the money to add tracks so there is enough room to run frequent exo service. The blame for why exo and via is so bad lies squarely in the provincial and federal governments hands.
But I agree the blue line ouest will never happen. If CSL wants better transportation they should push harder for an improvement of exo saint Jerome and the addition of a station and dedicated tracks.
CSL has for multiple times requested a exo station on the 12 to the aglomeration and every time it’s being just shoved to the side
I believe they are parasites because they are consistently obstructionist when working with municipalities/the government to improve their infrastructure. It took years, literally a decade to add one pedestrian crossing at Parc train station. Forget electrification (which wouldn’t affect their trains by the way, even double stacked containers), forget maintenance (they allow their non critical rails to literally fall apart, just ask via and Amtrak). They are absentee landlords to anyone who has to use their infrastructure that the government built long before CN was private. That’s why they’re parasites. And despite there being tons of space, literally enough to add 2 extra tracks the entire way from the west island to the center of Montreal, I doubt it will happen because they’re so against collaborating with anyone else.
Infrastructure that is as critical as CN and CP should be publicly owned, and then rights to use it should be granted to private operators. (My opinion)
Still the fault of the government. There’s no point in getting mad a company doing its job which is basically to make money no strings attached. Because the government decided that no strings were needed (incredibly stupid)
Even if it was the government that made them parasites, they are still parasites. Especially CN which hoards infrastructure that was built collectively…
Slightly off topic but does pertain to the prospects of improving exo in the sud ouest.
Well it doesn’t have to be like that. In Toronto where the government funds passenger rail, CN has permitted GO to run over CN tracks every hour (half hour in peak) over CN tracks from Aldershot to west harbour.
CN also allowed go to construct parallel tracks from Pickering to Oshawa for 15 minute go service.
CN also allows go to run trains every hour to Mount pleasant GO 7 days a week even though CN owns the tracks from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant.
CP is currently in the process of collaborating with Metrolinx to improve service on the Milton line which already has 15 minute service in peak, while also collaborating with Metrolinx to extend the lakeshore east line 4 stations to Bowmanville along the CP corridor with service every 30 minutes in peak and hourly off peak.
CP has also allowed Metrolinx to construct the Georgetown west corridor, a 4 tracks rail corridor exclusively for go trains from union station to Malton station with trains every 30 minutes to Brampton and 15 minutes to Pearson, by moving the CP tracks over to the far eastern side of the corridor.
TLDR: they will collaborate if the government wants to put in the work.
CP and CN are not good at moving tonnes of critical goods, they’re good at extracting the most profits from moving said goods. When it’s more profitable to move everything in 3.6 km long trains, you bet they’ll do it. When it’s more profitable to move this long train at a snails pace in order to cheap out on track maintenance, you bet they’ll do it. Why negociate with other agencies when they can share as little infrastructures to ensure they can run their trains whenever it’s the most profitable? Why electrify their tracks if they can’t make money out of that?
Yes, the neolibs of the 90s are to blame for privatising everything, but that happened over 25 years ago. Meanwhile, CN and CP are acting as a duopolly and hold one of the most critical pieces of infrastructures in the country. Currently, they are a significant part of the problem. And what about the government now? There’s either no political gain to be made from doing anything or it is in the interest of the people in charge to act in the owning classe’s interest. When did privatisation of critical infrastructure ever benefit the people at large?
Exactly, it’s up to the government to attach strings. This is just like the REM with design criteria, just on a greater scale and a different level of government.
But what good is it to critique how CN and CP operate when it is completely legal and allowed by the government? The problem is people blame this elusive Boogie man of private freight when in reality it’s just a cope for ineffective governance. In Ontario there seems to be little problem with negotiating with the freight operators and getting what Metrolinx wants, it’s just in jurisdictions with no willpower that have problems. It’s again the fault of the government completely, shared every provincial and federal government since about 1950.
If the artm and the government had teeth, there would already be trains every 15 minutes to LaSalle, saint Jerome and Mascouche. Easy corridors where little investment is requirement to improve service drastically. The government just doesn’t care.
I’m critical of the legal framework that allows CN and CP to exist as private companies. Our institutions work hand in hand with private interests at the cost of public good (see Northvolt, Fossil fuel subsidies). Yes, we can get some small gains here and there, but the big pictures will always be the same. We can’t develop a nationwide public rail system by begging private rail companies everytime we want something. It’s not sustainable.
For the small gain parts, I agree with you. Our local government doesn’t have the nerve to do anything about it. This is either due to a lack of vision, or a very antiquated idea of what transportation should be. An indicator of our carbrained view on transportation is how little scrutiny freeway expansion gets vs public transit.
But that’s not what Ontario is doing. They are putting the effort and the money, making it worthwhile for CP and CN. Like we understand that they are financially motivated, but can’t make the connection that it’s ultimately a financial problem. We’re so close to get it. Either we build your own infrastructure, partially or fully buy out the network, or work out a financial and legal agreement with rail companies. Time to bite the bullet, or at least stop framing the problem as if it was all on CN/CP.
Central Montreal is more of a freight hub than central Toronto. There will never be an opportunity to buy those tracks running through the center of the island. Deux montagnes was an exception because its not connected to anything at all. We also have to consider the cost of double tracking and upgrading infrastructure which would be considerably easier to do (and convince our partners to do) in places where CN and CP don’t run that many trains. I genuinely and whole heartedly believe that outside of the Westmount sub, we are cooked. There is almost no more value to extract out of that infrastructure, it’s basically off limits because of the port and the train yards. The idea qui veut peut is nice, but it works best in places where doing the peut is easier (Toronto)
CN and CP suck, and it’s the federal governments fault
Doomerism is not realism folks.
Is it doomerism or is it responding to outside stimulus and therefore adjusting expectations? Throwing that label on a take that’s based on observations isn’t fair
It’s interesting that different components of the government (form the state corporation, the municipality, the transit agency) all seem to have varying levels of success and outcomes dealing with CP an CN. It’s almost as if provided there’s a will and resources, it’s possible to deal with rail companies, and that pretending otherwise is fatalism. Can we stop defining our politics by exceptionalism. From education, to procurement, health, mobility, productivity…. It’s not working out so well for us.
It’s all context dependant, you can’t just say “do what Toronto’s doing because it works” when Toronto is dealing with their own infrastructure. Same applies to all other situations where CN and CP are dealt with (and dealing is not the right word I’d use for them, it’s more like when they decide it’s valuable for them to work with a partner). My point is that in Montreal’s context, the rail network is filled with important yards, busy sections and a large port right in the center of the urban area. So that removes the option for new right of ways because there’s the city, and the option for more heavy utilization of existing infrastructure is not an option because it’s being used pretty effectively by its actual owner.
We should not have grandiose visions of a regional rail network a la Go train unless the government sinks huge money into it, and at that point there is a laundry list of projects that have priority for those funds.
The idea that there is literally nothing exceptional about our situation is about as unrealistic as saying we are unique on earth. No two places are the same. I wonder why Vancouver doesn’t have an awesome regional rail network like Toronto, it’s almost like their context isn’t right for that either
Framing CN and CP is not going to change anything. We need a nationalization of railroads. The best time to do it was never (we shouldn’t have sold to the private sector), the second best time is now.
A more realistic approach is to nationalize urbain railway corridors ; invest, electrify and upgrade the tracks ; sell the rights to use said tracks to private companies (but keep the infra public). This way, we could give smaller railway operators a way to compete, ensure passenger rail etiher gets priority or dedicated tracks, make electric rail a more economically attractive option compared to trucking. Long freight trains could still run at night when there’s less traffic on the tracks.
But even the realistic scenario is not happening. Something something train communism and cars freedom something something.