PL 96, débat sur les langues et discussions connexes

Pour éviter d’alourdir les autres discussions sur ces débats, cet emplacement sera celui privilégié pour s’exprimer sur ces sujets.

Ces sujets sont polarisants, les règles du forum s’appliquent toujours. Veuillez faire preuve de politesse et de retenu, il n’y aura jamais un consensus.

Pour les utilisateurs qui ne sont pas intéressés à lire cette discussion, je vous invite à mettre le sujet en sourdine:

Sourdine

Very scary to see, the CAQ is plunging QC back into a backwards conservative ideology that creates classes based on language. Bill 96/21 already violate human rights and are VERY conservative and restrictive in nature and it’ll harm Montreal and Quebec. I really wish we would have electoral reform, considering the CAQ doesn’t even get majority approval of the QC population. It’s also sad/hurtful that very conservatives people outside Montreal call the shots on society, at the expense of our amazing city and at the expense of rights and freedoms.

6 Likes

Oui parce que parler français c’est être arriéré. C’est à cause de ce genre de mentalité que les Québécois francophones sont derrière la loi 101 et 96.

3 Likes

On a jamais dit que c’est arriéré de parler français. Ce qui est arriéré, c’est de ne pas laisser le choix de parler la langue qu’on veut, de ne pas laisser le choix aux gens de mettre des signes religieux s’ils le veulent, etc…

1 Like

Propagande. Je pense que tu réfères au système de santé, si c’est le cas il y’a la loi 15 qui oblige les professionnels de santé de te servir dans ta langue de choix.

Si tu réfères aux emplois à Montréal, tout ce qui touche technologie et business, ça fait un sacré moment qu’on parle plus français.

Si tu réfères au centre-ville de Montréal, 80% du temps je me fais servir qu’en anglais.

Essaye de parler la langue que tu veux à Toronto pour voir.

Pour la religion, les signes de fermeture d’esprit et de soumission de la femme ne sont pas les bienvenues dans le système publique.

3 Likes

Tell me where I said speaking French is backward. When you have laws that violate fundamental rights and freedoms/try to change the constitution (without the approval of majority of provinces, the feds and the courts), violate sections pertaining to courts, giving the OQLF the most absurd policing powers, presumptively use section 33 (which by the way, were meant to shield provinces from judicial supremacy, not curtail freedoms and shield court orders) that’s where society is going backwards here. It’s a huge right wing shift that does not benefit anyone, including francophones.

Tell me how Bill 96 will legitimately protect French, when Quebec has one of the highest illiteracy rate in North America, the lowest graduation rates in North America and the infrastructure pertaining to learning the language here is horrible (I’ll give you a hint, it does nothing to protect French, it just instates a supremacy over all and creates class division based on language).

I know it’s a tricky and sensitive subject, but I will not back down on a law that violates so many sections of the constitution and has multiple lawsuits incoming (and a good chance it will get taken to international courts) which yes, Quebec has to abide by.

5 Likes

Donc pour toi, une femme qui porte le voile est le signe d’une fermeture d’esprit et de soumission? Les femmes ont bien le droit de porter ce qu’ils veulent. J’aimerais savoir pourquoi le voile (ou autres signes religieux) ne sont pas les bienvenus dans l’espace publique.

On est plus en 1850.

4 Likes

This is where I need convincing. How is the backlash to this law different from the backlash to every discussion on law 101, that I’m sure at the time was seen as a major infringement on rights. Any step to protect french by the province aside from some good feels or kind encouragement would come with backlash, and with 50 years of hindsight, 101 today is seen by many as being instrumental in economic power of Francophones, their rights as well as the current linguistic demographics of the province. It also basically goes without saying that french, at least in the region of Montreal, would be well on its way to irrelevancy without 101. Doesn’t take being a francophone to know that, considering I’ve been through the English system my whole life

So in 30 years from now, would we just be looking at this as another piece of Quebec history? Also, without legislation, what should have been done to maintain french in Quebec, a question for which do nothing was not (and still is not for a lot of Francophones) a good option. Something as long term and difficult to learn as a language needs some kind of economic or cultural relevance to be learned seriously, and Quebec manufactured that relevance by enforcement through the education system. I also say all of this because compared to that watershed moment in 1977, this doesn’t feel as impactful or major

je sais que l’ambiance politique sur le forum est un peu tendue, mais je pense que ma contribution ici est plutôt whatever et ne servira pas à aggraver les choses :woozy_face:

1 Like

Well lets see, Bill 101 was necessary at the time. But French is stronger now than in the 1970s, the rate of people who can speak French is higher than Bill 101 times. Anglo’s do not control Quebec anymore/aren’t the boogeyman, the Catholic Church isn’t around either forcing French Canadians to follow their life and directly become poorer and less educated because of them. What we’re stuck with are old white French Canadian’s stuck with a mentality that is five or six decades outdated and goes against progressive Quebec ideologies.

Bill 96 issues

  1. Immigrants only getting 6 months to learn French until they lose services in English/their language… This does not protect French and goes against basic human rights. How does this protect and promote French? Cause all it does through the eyes of immigrants, is show how closed minded the language and government is.
  2. The creation of “historic anglos” which literally categorizes non-francophones. It also undermines peoples backgrounds, the whole “you’re an Anglo if you speak English regardless of your background” is a colonial thing.
    2A. You do not get any services in English if you are not a “historical Anglo”, which again, undermines basic human rights and freedoms. Does this mean those in that category get a special card or passport? So now it’s classist.
  3. The OQLF getting police powers to search a company (or peoples) phones, emails and messages to ensure that French is the only language being spoken? This is a violation of section 8 of the constitution (right to safe search and seizure). This is so extreme and will make QC and Montreal lose thousands of jobs that are high paying, thus affecting the tax base and making companies leave. The chamber of commerce recently had nearly 300 businesses express concerns to them, imagine 300 leaving? How will that strengthen Quebec? Imagine all your clients are outside Quebec and you tell them “whoops, can’t speak to you in another language than French anymore”. How will closing off to the world help French thrive and help Quebec?
  4. Putting a cap on Anglo CEGEPs, thus limiting adults to choose their education of choice, affecting all linguistic sides. What if a Francophone wants to explore the world and go elsewhere? Can’t do that without English.
  5. Until the final hour, the government made an amendment about films in Quebec, which applied to Hollywood movies too, saying all films and shows here had to be in French… if that passed, that’s a good $1B gone from the economy.
  6. Forcing this on Indigenous people is also a colonial thing to do and I am happy they are ignoring the Provincial government and will launch lawsuits.

So far, Bill 96 is not law as it has NOT received Royal Assent just yet. But I’ve seen the following happen

  1. Business leaving Montreal (mainly startups, bilingual jobs and six figure salaries). Why? Not because of French, but because the government is FORCING them to comply, along with more red tape and giving the OQLF policing powers without a warrant… I wouldn’t want my business here too with that, even if it was all French.

  2. I’ve seen people denied services in English, even in hospitals, where I had to intervene. Businesses in Quebec have already told clients, customers and staff that English will no longer be communicated.

  3. Talent is leaving/threatening to leave. Do you want smart students to stay in Quebec regardless of language? If so, this bill will not lead to that, it will lead to another brain drain.

So again, how does a bill that

  1. Categorizes people based on language/give them certain privileges
  2. Takes away the rights, freedoms of people (expression, choice, education)
  3. Makes the OQLF impose a police state based on language
  4. Try to change the constitution without the consent of other levels of government/courts
  5. Enshrines French supremacy/language of the law implies an ethnostate
  6. Targets immigrants and indigenous people
  7. Will lead to another business exodus which will harm ALL people of ALL backgrounds
  8. Removes getting served in a language not French for basic services (healthcare is not exempt in the law, as it is not mentioned in the law, unlike Bill 21 where it specifically said healthcare is exempt)
  9. Does nothing to improve language courses, the high rate of illiteracy in Quebec, low graduation rates in French schools (lowest in North America).

I can go on, but you get the point. This is not a law for the people, it’s an authoritarian one based on fear, populism and rhetoric that is outdated, sensational and xenophobic. The amount of lawsuits undertaken right now or about to be should be a very clear indicator of what the law is trying to do.

I have a background in Poli Sci (PhD) and have been looking and examining laws in Canada and the United States, while also being involved in the policy making process. I have never seen a law give so much power to the government and government orgs to make society conform. It reminds me of American right-wing nationalists and I don’t mean that in a kind way. This goes against Quebec values and literally undermines the notion that Quebec is the most “progressive” jurisdiction in North America.

13 Likes

J’ai beaucoup de mal à comprendre la haine de certains anglophones envers notre souhait de continuer d’exister. Notre disparition partout en Amérique du Nord et au Canada n’est pas suffisante pour eux? Il faut que ça se fasse même au Québec?
La sur-complétude institutionnelle des anglophones au Québec et le sur-financement des ces institutions qui forcent les Québécois à devoir travailler chez eux dans une langue étrangère ne sont pas suffisants? Jusqu’où iront-ils dans leur croisade?
Que leur avons-nous fait pour s’attirer tant de haine?

4 Likes

On the other side, we will also never understand the hatred of certain francophones towards our rights to coexist. The lack of understanding that English is the language of commerce in the world. The pure hatred towards non white immigrants. The xenophobia and the continued unscientific bashing of immigrants. Laying the blame of entire social problems at the feet of immigrants. Being able to steamroll and ignore the native population that were colonized and then accuse the anglos of the same thing. Yeah, we get it. You hate us too. We don’t understand why. But we see it everywhere these days. It’s always easiest to blame the most voiceless and oppressed. Nationalism is a disease. Let’s “Make Québec Great Again”. Nostalgic nationalism is outdated and wrong.

Ask your provincial govt to stop going to other countries and offering tax credits to Anglo commerce. Stealing entire jobs that used to exist in the the US and porting them here via tax credits. Then realizing they need the workers to fulfill the jobs. Thus forcing us to move here. And then hating us for speaking the language of the jobs they stole. I never saw myself ever wanting to live here but years ago, my industry was slowly poached to this province. We all had to move. I made many quebecer friends and we all get along. To ask “can we at least have our basic rights respected” and have you turn around and ask why we hate you? You need to add some water to your wine.

The only problem here is a government that has spent the last four years fanning the fires of nationalism, dividing the province and resulting in two groups who don’t want to listen to each other.

As an outsider watching this unfold, it is a damn shame. It was such a promising province when we first moved here.

And before you tell me, if you don’t like it, leave. I’m one step ahead of you. We’re leaving. Most of the expats in my industry are. It was a good ride.

You’ll have your wish, you’ll hear less English in Montreal - not because everyone was inspired by 96 and learnt the language, but because many of us are leaving - and we will never look back.

To end, we don’t hate you. French is a beautiful language, I’ve always wanted to learn it and have done so. But I admit it lost its charm when they started holding it over our heads and threatening our rights. I stopped speaking it. I just got so put off.

It’s nothing personal. Peace.

6 Likes

This is the best thing I’ve read in a long time about the French/English and laws surrounding it debate , and I’m a Francophone from an all French-speaking family who went through the Quebec educational system that quite frankly , you are also absolutely right about . Underfunded failure with low graduation rates , probably in high schools I guess ? In any case , thank you for your detailed and argumentative answer , I will most likely reference it in the future .

4 Likes

You do need a subscription and idk how to get this article accessible for everyone.

Le Québec se doit de devenir indépendant. Le français n’a plus aucun rapport de force, et du moins, le restant de force qu’il lui reste est ce qui cause les frustrations des autres.

À Toronto je ne me mets pas à pleurer parce qu’il faut que j’apprenne l’anglais, je le fais sans pleurnicher ou me poser de question, je comprends que ça vaudra la peine. À Montréal on se dit que le français ça ne sert pas tellement, qu’au fond c’est eux qui sont racistes et qu’il y a assez d’anglophones ou d’anglophiles autour de moi pour éviter l’apprentissage de la langue.

Très ironique aussi ce discours d’indignation face à la division provenant souvent de gens (p-ê pas vous) qui nous parlent pourtant de privilège blanc, de racisme systémique et de quotas ethniques. Enfin bref, ce que je lis ici ne fait que renforcer mon opinion comme quoi le Québec doit devenir un pays. C’est très semblable à ce que je vois sur Tiktok à propos de n’importe quelle vidéo qui parle du Québec, les gens n’attendent qu’à déverser leur fiel à propos de la province, et compte tenu du débalancement démographique, tu ne lis que ça.

En passant je rapelle que 50% des Québécois sont bilingues contre environ 7-8% dans le reste du Canada. Donc tout le discours de fermeture d’esprit, qu’on veut pas apprendre la langue, qu’on déteste l’anglais etc, etc, on repassera. Aussi l’argument du libre choix pour apprendre l’anglais en post-secondaire, je confirme qu’il y a littéralement personne qui a appris l’anglais en allant au Cégep (ni le français correctement d’ailleurs mais c’est un autre sujet). L’anglais est tellement hégémonique qu’il s’apprend par osmose tout simplement. Les gens qui postulent aux cégeps anglos parlent déjà très bien anglais. Et de toute façon, si je me fie aux stats que j’ai mentionnées, ce sont plutôt les anglos-canadiens unilingues (qui sont bcp plus nombreux) qui se coupent d’une partie du reste du monde, y’a pourtant pas autant de vierges offensées pour le dénoncer.

8 Likes

c’est drôle, j’écoutais aujourd’hui la présentation d’Apple et il y’a un développeur d’une compagnie japonaise qui vient présenter un jeu vidéo. Il a fait sa présentation en japonais sans aucun problème, il y’avait des sous-titres en anglais. Ici dans une compagnie de jeux vidéo, je peux rêver du jour où on aura des présentations en français dans une compagnie composée de 90% de francophone.

7 Likes

J’écoutais cette même présentation et je pensais exactement la même chose.

1 Like

Je ne suis pas d’accord avec ton dernier passage qui dit que personne a appris l’anglais au Cegep. C’est le parcour exact que j’ai choisi justement pour perfectionner mon anglais.

L’éducation de l’anglais au secondaire est vraiment déffectueuse. Même à une école “de qualité” relative au système d’éducation publique, ma grammaire et mon orthographe faisaient défault. Le fait d’être immersé 6 heures par jour dans un environnement anglophone m’a permis d’avoir un niveau professionel en anglais. Sans cette possibilité, j’aurais uniquement appris l’anglais sur l’internet. Apprendre par “osmose” ne permet pas d’atteindre un niveau professionel et limite effectivement les possibilités des jeunes de s’épanouir dans l’économie mondiale.

Ensuite, si on m’avait forcé à aller au Cegep en français j’aurais eut un choix beaucoup plus limité. J’aurais été presque forcé d’aller au Cegep du Vieux parce que sinon rosemont et maisonneuve sont assez loin. J’ai rien contre le Cegep du Vieux, mais on s’entend que sa réputation académique n’est pas la meilleure.

J’aurais été en Tabarnak d’être forcé de limiter mes opportunités académiques pour remedier aux inquiétudes identitaires des Québecois qui ne sont même pas affectés par les limitations qu’ils mettent en place.

6 Likes

Je reviens à mes stats de 50% contre 7-8%, cessez vos prétentions d’être pro-bilinguisme, vous voulez simplement que tout le monde parle parfaitement anglais au Québec parce que vous octroyer à la langue un aura de supériorité.

S’épanouir dans l’économie mondiale??? Désolé mais mon but personellement ce n’était pas de quitter le Québec après mes études, je comprends qu’il y en a qui aime blâmer la province pour leur échec personnel, mais je ne me sens pas personnellement priver de quoique ce soit en restant au Québec, je suis pourtant parfaitement bilingue. Ça sert à quoi, après tout, de former des gens avec de l’argent public si c’est pour qu’ils quittent par après.

S’il fallait que la plus grande Université de Toronto soit francophone et sur-subventionnée pour qu’ensuite la plupart de ses étudiants viennent travailler au Québec, people would lose their fucking mind.

2 Likes

Je serais curieux de voir la qualité de l’éducation du français dans les écoles anglophones du Canada anglais!!

Ce qui me fait rire, c’est qu’à Fairview Pointe-Claire…

Tout est écrit Unilingue Français, l’anglais est très peu présent sur les écrits…

Mais tout le monde parle anglais et y’a un mépris qui se ressent si tu es francophone!

Lol!

Fouille-moi pourquoi?